tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post7956194800682747409..comments2024-01-20T00:00:10.459-08:00Comments on Mudblood Catholic: Raw Tact, Part II: The Brother of BeatriceGabriel Blanchardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-90045033702002282842014-05-17T06:24:20.702-07:002014-05-17T06:24:20.702-07:00Definitely agree Brandon! And thank you Gabriel fo...Definitely agree Brandon! And thank you Gabriel for your post and comment replies--all extremely insightful, they really help me better understand my situation. God bless!XanderMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13598675359931287297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-63768596439600323312013-08-22T15:57:11.209-07:002013-08-22T15:57:11.209-07:00"I knew already that gay sex was wrong; did i..."I knew already that gay sex was wrong; did it follow that gay affections were wrong? Must I abandon my romantic feelings? Could I even if I had to? That question was easily answered: I was powerless to feel otherwise than as I did."<br /><br />It is a blessing that you were able to ask those questions. When I realized in 1959, at the age of sixteen, that my affection for other boys was homosexual — http://naturgesetz-takecourage.blogspot.com/2008/11/self-awareness.html — I took it for granted that those affections were wrong. In the intervening 50+ years there has been plenty of time for the Church to reflect on homosexuality and to see the value of intimacy in the lives of homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. For me, more than thirty years went by before I was clear on the point. Meanwhile, I had developed habits of caution which caused my friendships to be needlessly stunted. I'm still trying to learn how to be fully open in my relationships.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-58143261408286199482013-08-12T03:39:16.841-07:002013-08-12T03:39:16.841-07:00Yes, I do, too, Rachel. Yes, another beautiful pos...Yes, I do, too, Rachel. Yes, another beautiful post. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-79103496552093897632013-08-10T20:30:14.294-07:002013-08-10T20:30:14.294-07:00Last things first: I don't know whether lettin...Last things first: I don't know whether letting romantic feelings subside is a good or bad or neutral idea. This is because, for me, they kind of don't. I mean, I'm not still fairy-tale gaga over every man I've ever been in love with; but you never feel exactly the same about a man you have loved when the eros proper goes away, and the eros has conspicuously not gone away in any absolute sense in two out of three cases, for me. I am, to be honest, still in love with Victor, and I tend to think I always will be; I'm not exaggerating when I compare it to Dante's feeling for Beatrice. So, in sum, I probably can't give an intelligent answer to your last question, because for me, it's either be friends irrespective of romantic feelings, or don't be friends. I seriously doubt that that's true of everybody -- but for that very reason, I feel I have no right to formulate a general rule.<br /><br />I do think that rules of thumb can be offered for those kind of situations, though, and these are the ones I've found (through reading, direction, and experience). The first is that no two loves are alike. Eros is an incorrigibly individual experience. In the Grail cycle, Arthur's love for Guinevere is a very different thing from Lancelot's love for Guinevere, even though it is two very similar men (and good friends at that) in love with the same woman. And her differing loves for each of them are very different, even though it is the same woman loving. In consequence, I think that a given experience of eros has to be judged on its own merits as to whether it will, probably, be predominantly positive, predominantly destructive, or fairly neutral. That requires wise guidance more than a black-and-white rule.<br /><br />The second is that I am rather suspicious of rules, as opposed to morals. Morals are a very good thing. Rules, i.e. the things we set up to try and make morality easier, are sometimes helpful, invariably oversimplified, and, when they are confused with morality, extremely dangerous and corrosive -- that is exactly what the Pharisees were doing. Similarly, my suspicion of rules goes up in proportion to the tendency of those who believe in said rules to insist that they be applied to other people. The lives of consecrated religious are a great example: for a given man or woman to believe that it will help them grow closer to God if they renounce all their possessions, is not only valid, but praiseworthy. For them to say that everybody must renounce all their possessions to grow closer to God is serious heresy. So here; I can easily believe that, for this or that person, avoiding all friendships with anybody other than a spouse to whom they feel attracted is the best course of action. For them (or anyone) to say that that is the only right way of handling attractions isn't, well, right. For me, not to make my male friends uncomfortable, it would literally result in my not having any male friends at all. And that is not only a lunatic solution (to be fair, some lunatics have been very holy -- look up St Christina the Astonishing some time, or St Catherine of Siena for that matter), it would result in far worse disorders due to starved affections, because the heart does not stop needing friendships merely because the brain decides that they contain an element of risk to the genitals.<br /><br />And that is kind of the catch of it all. There is no pattern of life, certainly not of the spiritual life, that can be lived without risk. Wisdom consists, partly, in learning which risks are the right ones to take. Which means coming to right and wrong, and coming to know yourself, those being two of the chief means through which we come to know God.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-51981265854594132882013-08-10T13:36:33.915-07:002013-08-10T13:36:33.915-07:00The church needs more people who can communicate a...The church needs more people who can communicate as well as you do, Gabriel. You demonstrate so effectively just what so many gay Christians go through, and make those experiences very relatable to others.<br /><br />I think you bring up a good point, too, that not every experience of a gay person is bad, as so many Christians seem to want to believe. There really can be good things such as affection, kindness, love, and personal growth that each of us can experience as a result of our orientation, and those things are not intrinsically sinful simply because we are gay.Brendonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18248268499428066786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-10881431991728471802013-08-10T11:45:07.885-07:002013-08-10T11:45:07.885-07:00Thanks for sharing your experiences and feelings. ...Thanks for sharing your experiences and feelings. Regarding falling in love with someone who is off limits, that temptation exists for everyone. As a married, heterosexual man, if I find myself attracted to someone other than my wife, I have to tell myself "not to go there" with certain thoughts and close the door, so to speak, in my mind and heart. Same thing held when I was single and had to be careful not to think too much about certain married women. I suppose that's something that comes with maturity, no matter to whom you are attracted. <br /><br />I can do just fine without being friends with women other that my wife, but it sure is nice to have other male friends. So, it is much easier for me to keep my distance from other women. If you have same-sex attraction, you still need your same-sex friendships, so it is probably more of a challenge to keep your distance from a potential troubling situation. Good luck!<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-63628710182372337662013-08-10T08:24:30.232-07:002013-08-10T08:24:30.232-07:00Hi Gabriel,
Thanks for the post; you always seem ...Hi Gabriel,<br /><br />Thanks for the post; you always seem to be writing about the very issues I am struggling with at the moment. I enjoyed reading about your relationship with Victor; in some ways, it is the mirror of a friendship I had in college. And I am so glad that God used this to draw you closer to Himself, even though I am saddened by the pain you must have went through those two years.<br /><br />So, if I, the complete stranger, might ask you a personal question, would you be friends with Victor if those romantic desires were still present? I know many of my married straight friends avoid friendships with any woman to whom they feel even a slight bit of attraction. But would you offer the same advice? You know first hand how destructive, intoxicating, and beneficial these types of friendships can be. Do you think that the benefits outweigh the pitfalls, or do you think it is best to let the romantic feelings subside?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03777207698888502073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-33401220882847604562013-08-09T16:47:59.031-07:002013-08-09T16:47:59.031-07:00Josh Weed (I think his last name is actually Weedi...Josh Weed (I think his last name is actually Weedinger, or something like that) and Melinda Selmys, both of whose blogs can be found among my Sites That Rock Reasonably Hard. Both are out, both take a traditional view of sexuality and marriage, and (very importantly) both were out to their spouses before getting married -- in fact, long before marriage was even on the table, as it happens.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-29131335657353275032013-08-09T15:50:41.722-07:002013-08-09T15:50:41.722-07:00Gabriel,
Who are those two favorite authors you me...Gabriel,<br />Who are those two favorite authors you mentioned in your post?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-35818699963588770722013-08-09T03:27:10.385-07:002013-08-09T03:27:10.385-07:00What recourse does a gay Catholic have other than ...What recourse does a gay Catholic have other than to accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in spite of its hurtful language? Catholicism really isn't big on arguing with the higher-ups...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-90345941776093884472013-08-07T21:01:34.893-07:002013-08-07T21:01:34.893-07:00Gabriel -
Thank you so much for your thoughtful r...Gabriel - <br />Thank you so much for your thoughtful response.<br /><br />I wholly agree that the clinical* terms in the Catechism are misunderstood in the context of common usage. I'm not sure your pica analogy is inconsistent with the common understanding of "intrinsically disordered" to those of us who understand homosexuality to be a normal variation of human sexuality.<br /><br />One of my major challenges as an affirming gay Christian is to combat the desire of my LGBT tribe to marginalize conservative Christians (who are now in the moral minority). It's putting me in conflict with several important people in my life. I gotta say...the Catholic church leadership is not making that task any easier (see Timothy Dolan's response to the Pope's recent change in tone).<br /><br />I look forward to your future thoughts on this really important topic. <br /><br />Thanks again. I wish you well!<br />Ford<br /><br />______<br />*for want of a better wordFord1968http://fordswords.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-16721094483756510452013-08-07T20:40:27.875-07:002013-08-07T20:40:27.875-07:00This "Side A" Orthodox is an unabashed ...This "Side A" Orthodox is an unabashed fan of your blog :)Brian Delaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02370262318365249325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-37351102574986216562013-08-07T15:18:28.690-07:002013-08-07T15:18:28.690-07:00I certainly agree that the language of the Catechi...I certainly agree that the language of the Catechism has been used to justify bigotry, and that, even granted Catholic moral premises, a lot of practical decisions made by officials of the Church herself and of Catholic institutions have been unnecessary, unkind, or worse. Whether the language of the Catechism is intrinsically bigoted is a subject I want to address in a post unto itself; for now, I will say that the reason it does certainly come across as pretty harsh is that a lot of technical terminology in theology consists of words that are also present in the English vernacular, as it were, but have different meanings. There are other examples of this ("necessary," "grace," and "infallible" all spring to mind). <br /><br />For instance, to take the phrase "objectively disordered," in the Catechism this doesn't mean at all what it would said by the theoretical Man In the Street. It sounds like "You're sick, whether you admit it or not." But, due to the philosophical underpinnings of Catholic vocabulary, it means something like, "a desire directed toward an incorrect object," which obviously is pretty different. (A parallel example would be the phenomenon of pica, the urge to eat things that aren't really food; this could equally be described as an objective disorder, because the impulse of eating has been ordered, i.e. directed, toward a wrong object -- hence, objectively disordered.)<br /><br />The added headache comes in with several other facts: for instance, that both the technical and the popular meaning may be operating in a given person's heart or mind at the same time, and they may only be aware of one of them; that a lot of Catholics who care about right theology in the first instance are perfectly willing to be jerks about it; that, having accepted the Catholic view of the matter, the specifically political and social implications of that view are not automatic deductions; that there is still such a thing as homophobia (which I take the Catechism to implicitly acknowledge, though of course not under that name); and that a lot of people on both sides cannot get past the language to deal with the substance of the doctrine, so that they wind up talking at cross-purposes at best and drowning each other in vitriol at worst.<br /><br />As I said, I want to write more on this subject. Thanks very much for your feedback.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-49767578364631422772013-08-07T06:27:11.983-07:002013-08-07T06:27:11.983-07:00Thank you for another beautiful post :). I unders...Thank you for another beautiful post :). I understand what you are talking about although I am a straight, married woman. God bless you Gabriel.Rachelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-57807431232118931502013-08-07T05:47:13.667-07:002013-08-07T05:47:13.667-07:00Hi Gabriel -
I love this post and the gracious wa...Hi Gabriel - <br />I love this post and the gracious way you've written it. I also truly appreciate how you generously share your personal experience. Thank you for doing this.<br /><br />Here's a question for you. I've been giving serious consideration to what, exactly, bigotry is and what it isn't. To me, the language of the Catholic catechism is really offensive and is used to justify bigotry. And I believe that the church leadership acts in excessively intolerant ways (e.g., the school teacher who was fired because her spouse was listed in a funeral announcement, the fight against providing legal protections to gay couples and their children, etc). <br /><br />I'd really love to hear more of your thoughts on why you don't think that's so.<br /><br />I'm happy to dialog offline if that's more appropriate.<br /><br />All my best to you.<br />FordFord1968http://fordswords.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-41616418416730554582013-08-06T21:05:09.579-07:002013-08-06T21:05:09.579-07:00I just wanted to thank you for writing this blog. ...I just wanted to thank you for writing this blog. As an early-20s gay Catholic male, I really appreciate the fact that there is someone out there who is orthodox, but at the same time is able to express the experience, the good points and the frustrations, that many of us feel, in a way that isn't insanely-censored out of fear for being called heretical or a sincere but overly strict interpretation of the Church's teachings that are next to impossible for many of us to follow (and is not required, due to the principles of probibilism and aequiprobibilism).<br /><br />I have actually recommended your blog to a priest in the confessional once when we were discussing what it was like to be a gay Catholic. Thanks again for writing. You are in my prayers!Timmynoreply@blogger.com