tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post8415003589316265036..comments2024-01-20T00:00:10.459-08:00Comments on Mudblood Catholic: A Question I Have No Good Answer ToGabriel Blanchardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-55107306109857796932015-03-19T12:09:15.523-07:002015-03-19T12:09:15.523-07:00I think the Church has made formal pronouncements ...I think the Church has made formal pronouncements dealing explicitly with spiritual gender, in Galatians 3:27-28--"... for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."sorry to be so pickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14800569630901474091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-75815732839200906622015-03-19T12:07:58.847-07:002015-03-19T12:07:58.847-07:00"It's quite true that the Church has not ..."It's quite true that the Church has not (as far as I know) made formal pronouncements dealing explicitly with spiritual gender."<br /><br />Unless I'm horribly misinterpreting, it seems like the Church has made formal pronouncements dealing explicitly with spiritual gender, in Galatians 3:27-28--"... for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."sorry to be so pickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14800569630901474091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-61834949624732026862015-01-07T19:14:06.279-08:002015-01-07T19:14:06.279-08:00I wouldn't quite say that, but it's close....I wouldn't quite say that, but it's close. I'd say that, if God imbues something with meaning or purpose, that is its *objective* significance, and we disregard that kind of significance at our own peril. E.g., the purpose of eating is to nourish the body, and if we choose to exercise our free will by eating a bowlful of arsenic, we have neglected the true significance of eating and shall be accordingly imperilled, no matter what our own opinion of our action is.<br /><br />But it's clearly also true that, by our own intentions, we imbue things with meaning at a lower level (the level of personal and/or conventional, rather than intrinsic, significance). So, in chemistry, we have exercised our free wills to establish a convention that arsenic shall be known by the symbol As. This is, of course, only a convention, but its significance is not unreal; it just exists on a lower level than the deadliness of arsenic does, since it is bestowed by the image of God rather than by God.<br /><br />Now, pretty much everything we do has both an intrinsic meaning and a personal and/or conventional meaning. A toast, for example (preferably without arsenic), carries the intrinsic significance of slaking thirst, and also the conventional significance of honoring someone or something, the object so honored being determined by a personal choice. Or to take another combination of meanings, there are things that we give personal meaning to that have little or no conventional meaning, and whose intrinsic meaning may be unrelated -- inside jokes, for instance, make people laugh for reasons of the personal context, but the intrinsic and/or conventional meaning of the words doesn't communicate that meaning automatically, which is what makes it an inside joke rather than a public one.<br /><br />However, if we try to imbue something with a personal or conventional meaning that *conflicts* with its intrinsic significance, that won't work, in one way or another. That might have quite trivial or quite grave consequences, depending on many factors.<br /><br />Natural law theory would maintain (as Aquinas put it, more or less) that, if something works in the same way either always, or in the majority of cases, the thing it achieves is its purpose. (I'm oversimplifying, but that's the general idea.) This -- especially taken together with the fact that the, er, stuffs of the reproductive system, released in orgasm, only serve one biological purpose -- is held to establish that reproduction is the goal or end of the reproductive system, and correspondingly of sex.<br /><br />Many Catholics believe in natural law theory, and many natural law theorists are Catholic; and this does explain the Church's doctrine in a philosophical way, which can be helpful. But it isn't essential -- the Catholic doctrine doesn't stand or fall on natural law theory. The Catholic contention per se is that openness to life (*openness* to it, not necessarily success in producing it) is part of the inherent, God-given significance of sex, so that sexual acts which *of themselves* exclude it -- including those that take place in heterosexual sex, at least if they are wholly substituted for sex that is open to life -- are out of accord with the intrinsic meaning of sex. Aside from the natural evidence, the Church would adduce the creative pattern set out in Genesis, in which sexual differentiation is linked both to the image of God and to fruitfulness, which Genesis articulates specifically in sexually reproductive terms.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-17859921748622965382015-01-07T16:29:08.807-08:002015-01-07T16:29:08.807-08:00I have a question about this:
"It is that th...I have a question about this:<br /><br />"It is that the reproductive system is, well, a system designed with the purpose of reproduction***, and that the proper activity of rational beings like ourselves is to use things in accordance with their purpose -- or, at the very least, not use them in a way that contradicts their purpose."<br /><br />Actually, I have a lot of questions but I'll start with this one: How can we be confident that we know the purpose of some thing? I am assuming that only God is able to imbue things and acts with purpose - is that a correct characterization of your view?realZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663983983886991437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-75645532311931351662014-06-26T07:36:55.752-07:002014-06-26T07:36:55.752-07:00I think the problem here has to do with art.
You...I think the problem here has to do with art. <br /><br />You can have ten thousand precise, accurate, and sound syllogisms all proving a particular moral thesis, but if you are unable to integrate that thesis with your subconscious outlook on life, it will have a much smaller effect. That's what we* have here: Theology of the Body has made it into our minds, but not our hearts, mostly because it's alien to the way we've been taught to relate to our sexuality on a subconscious, emotional level. Quick, think about any romantic song, movie, etc that your average conservative could endorse. Even if the relationship in the art is hetero, the aspects of the relationship dwelt upon (commitment, affection, etc) would work just as well in a gay relationship. Ergo, it makes perfect sense that when we see commitment and affection in a gay relationship, it will resonate with us as "the same kind of thing" as a straight relationship, because we've been culturally primed for it. All of us.<br /><br />If we had been brought up with ToB rendered artistically, I'm sure this would be different.<br /><br /><br />*I say "we" because even I have the same thoughts you express here, even though I'm straight. Tynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-83406632135803164552014-06-25T22:23:57.017-07:002014-06-25T22:23:57.017-07:00Thanks for this. Your honesty and your tenacity ar...Thanks for this. Your honesty and your tenacity are likewise inspiring. I'm a fledgling Catholic ally hanging onto the 'Catholic' part by a few gossamer strands... from my place of privilege as hetero, cis, and married, it's hard to imagine even speaking to this question, so I'll just say that my heart is entirely with you here. I don't have a good answer, either... just a shattering, desperate, inexplicable need for there to be a God, but only if my LGBT friends can be as wholly acceptable to Him as privileged, sheltered little Jenna could ever be.<br /><br />Peace be with you. I'm following your blog.Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-11122953676830284772014-06-22T18:02:55.672-07:002014-06-22T18:02:55.672-07:00And it's completely awesome that you used Char...And it's completely awesome that you used Charizard in this discussion. 10 cool points to you.Rafaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-52643292763719831512014-06-22T17:56:06.666-07:002014-06-22T17:56:06.666-07:00I think what you said about gendered souls (while ... I think what you said about gendered souls (while maybe not the best term) is still approaching the mark. I identified as gay in my teens/early twenties and became a Christian some time later, choosing to lay down my identity to follow Christ. <br /> All that being said, the one thing I noticed not too long ago was that during that time, I was never once attracted to a man for *who he was*--to his soul. It was a purely a flesh thing--to use Biblical terms. To use non-biblical terms, it was only, and still is, physical. I definitely do not want to live a companionship style life with a man because I definitely don't have the attraction to a man's soul.<br /> One thing that's happened to me recently was that I out-of-the blue became attracted to women in a spiritual and soulish sense. And *that* arouses me. In other words, I can acknowledge a woman's beauty, but am not able to indulge in "straight porn." But when I meet a girl who acts a certain way, shares my interests, etc etc, I *am* stirred up by that and want to be around her and interact with her. And the more I grow to like her, the sexual feelings inevitably pop up to where I better have any physical contact lest I just throw myself into temptation and turn a good situation into bad.<br /> Anyways. I know things like these are in the hands of God and I certainly can't make them happen, but it's food for thought considering what you said about souls connecting. I can only account for my own experience and not other folks.Rafaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-955942102491458882014-06-22T00:30:33.861-07:002014-06-22T00:30:33.861-07:00Try reading my book on this topic:
http://stephen...Try reading my book on this topic:<br /><br />http://stephenlovatt.eu.pn/FaithfulToTheTruth.html<br /><br />Find me on FaceBook:<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/stephen.lovatt<br /><br />Pharseahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12363621957050900009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-52755851589085429522014-06-20T23:43:08.018-07:002014-06-20T23:43:08.018-07:00I struggle with this as well, and im not catholic ...I struggle with this as well, and im not catholic (im Methodist who "dabbles into" catholicism).<br />My traditional roman catholic friend sees everything homo as the third way movie - comparable to alcoholism, you can change same-sex attraction. <br />(Nevermind the term ssa literally feels like someone punched me in the stomach.)<br />I can't make sense or turn over an argument myself (except I don't believe souls are gendered) but at the same time, my heart asks why it's wrong as well.<br />And I'm going through lots of depression and suicidal thoughts, stuffI hhaven't dealt with in over a decade (26 now)bridgethttp://facebook.com/rokbonkanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-10221670703700181092014-06-18T09:53:03.054-07:002014-06-18T09:53:03.054-07:00Thanks for this. Its very good (I'm late catch...Thanks for this. Its very good (I'm late catching up on my reading).<br /><br />I guess natural law etc. is helpful but on a personal level I tend to prefer the "Bible says so" arguments. When God told Abraham to take Isaac to Mt. Moriah and sacrifice him, he didn't tell him why, he just told him to go.<br /><br />There is a deep coherence to the natural law tradition, but also deep problems. The distinction between "essentially non-procreative" and "accidentally non-procreative" sex acts seems counter-intuitive and arbitrary (what sense does it make to say that a woman who has had almost all of her reproductive organs surgically removed can still engage in an "essentially procreative" act, for example).<br /><br />For me personally if I'm going to be asked to do something counter-intuitive and seemingly arbitrary I'd rather be told by bibles and bishops than by Aristotle. But I understand why natural law still has deep value, especially in public philosophical conversations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12143633920677458175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-81089759124029138452014-06-08T18:37:21.214-07:002014-06-08T18:37:21.214-07:00I had to suppress a gasp after I read this. What ...I had to suppress a gasp after I read this. What a perfectly terrible thing to say to anyone <br /> As a relative once said "that is a matter for the confessional" Brian Delaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02370262318365249325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-43240059987827941842014-06-08T18:13:43.976-07:002014-06-08T18:13:43.976-07:00To be blunt, I haven't observed that -- in our...To be blunt, I haven't observed that -- in our own day and age -- being brought up as a Catholic has any great insulating effect against the errors and distortions of our culture. Admittedly I might have done better if I had had the graces of Confirmation, Confession, and the Eucharist at an earlier age; or then again, considering the lives of other Catholics (good and bad) that I've known, I might not. Given that I was raised in a Christian, though not Catholic, home, and one in which the sexual mores of Catholicism (up to and including her view of contraception) were more or less accepted, I think I got about as good an upbringing in those respects as most people have had the luck or grace to get in twentieth century America.<br /><br />As to reducing the faith to a simple intellectual exercise, well, yes, I'd quite like to do that. But I don't really see what that has to do with this. One of my chief points was that I accept the Church's teaching regardless of my ability to grasp it, and my own desire to understand is partly a manifestation of credo ut intelligam.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-85340905388228871442014-06-08T16:30:24.617-07:002014-06-08T16:30:24.617-07:00I too find it strange how I can disagree fully wit...I too find it strange how I can disagree fully with something yet still love it. The natural law does make perfect sense, especially with me being in the sciences that deal with how the human body works functionally. But maybe you are on to something. It is no secret Christians believe in the body and spirit (with rationality, emotion, will, and so forth), and that both are supposed to intertwine in a unique and special way that reflect the image of God. So to the issue of being gay or having same-sex attractions (whichever you prefer), there is naturally a physical side and a spiritual side to us. An outside observer can see the physical side of things and how they work. But there is nothing I can physically point to and proclaim as wrong (I'm a fine physical specimen if I do say so myself). The observer may instead just see inconvenient gases and curious taste of visual images (Titanic anyone?). But the observer then turns and peers deeper to the spiritual side of us and says about us humans that "there is something off about them, but in all this 'spiritual-ness' I can't quite point to it." Perhaps this is what people mean when they say"It is the result of the Fall." Our bodies began to decay, but even more devastating than that, we inherited a whole host of problems that affect our spiritual person. We then are not intertwined perfectly as we were meant to, and the whole business of sanctification is sowing the threads back together, but in a way that may bring pain, but in the end completely outdoes those original models. You've given me something to think about. Thanks for your thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-48766171486768057452014-06-07T22:02:05.079-07:002014-06-07T22:02:05.079-07:00To take things in perspective, Gabriel, you are on...To take things in perspective, Gabriel, you are only what, a 6-7 year neophyte in the Church? You didn't have the privilege of having grown up in a Catholic family. Furthermore, you were abused as a child. I would not expect you to understand the morality of some things though I would entirely expect you to like to reduce the faith into a simple intellectual exercise. It's very popular nowadays but it is not of Christ.<br /><br />Pax.SanctaTeresanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-32617047615478377982014-06-07T14:23:57.217-07:002014-06-07T14:23:57.217-07:00I'm not sure it does either, but what I'm ...I'm not sure it does either, but what I'm after is precisely an understanding of what, exactly, the nuptial meaning of the body consists in. Certainly it is "the gift through which all gifts are given," and one of the ways in which human beings are enabled mystically to share in one another's being, the source of all natural coinherence; and the very supernatural coinherence chose no other way to operate than through and with the assistance of the body.<br /><br />But of course, two men and two women, equally, have a pair of bodies. Why their bodies can't be nuptially united is what I'm after, considering that their love, if different in kind, can be quite as selfless and profound as the love between wife and husband. The answer to that question may well lie in a deeper understand of the Johanno-Pauline theology itself; if that's the case, I haven't swum that deep yet. This post itself may simply be me going from the edge of the river to the depth of my waist, so to speak.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-5269951555126029802014-06-07T14:19:09.934-07:002014-06-07T14:19:09.934-07:00I think she is, and does. The ticklish problem of ...I think she is, and does. The ticklish problem of divorce in this country, and pastoral responses to it, is certainly an example of the Church trying very hard to make the best of a bad situation, and trying to recognize the goods that can and do coexist with certain admitted evils. This isn't to say that her practice on this subject is not open to criticism, but I think it is an example of an attempt at what you're talking about. Nor is this phenomenon of concession and compromise unknown to Christian history -- indeed, it could claim a kind of Scriptural precedent in the whole practice of the Torah with its provisions for the hardness of men's hearts, as Christ put it, and most especially in II Kings 5.15-19, where Naaman the Syrian is given a dispensation by the prophet Elisha for a materially idolatrous act.<br /><br />The challenge, of course, is working out the details. Balancing authentic compassion and love with a rigorous commitment to holiness is always hard, not because the things are incompatible in themselves, obviously, but because our own natures always tend to find one half of the problem easier than the other. Hence, sometimes, the tendency to ask whether such-and-such a belief or precept "really matters"; the perennial tug to ignore things we find unpleasant is likely at work when we find ourselves using that phrase. Alternatively, hence the tendency to assert the importance of "speaking the truth in love," with the implication that speaking the truth is always an act of love, no matter how nastily we do it.<br /><br />I don't know whether there is a solution to the problem, at least not in the sense of "Always do X and you'll be fine." Even if there is one, I sure don't know what it is. Aside from, "Always love and follow Christ and you'll be fine," but of course, what's under discussion is the natural reply to that directive, "How?"Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-24034754337914596052014-06-06T18:52:29.362-07:002014-06-06T18:52:29.362-07:00You may be on to something in this riff on the TOB...You may be on to something in this riff on the TOB view of the body as the physical image of the spirit — both God and the individual spirit. But I'm not sure it adds anything important to the Johanno-Pauline insight that the nuptial meaning of the body is what makes it possible for man and woman to image the committed, fruitful love of the Trinity.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-35526427845353756312014-06-05T19:08:19.531-07:002014-06-05T19:08:19.531-07:00To Aaron and Ramuk both: It's quite true that ...To Aaron and Ramuk both: It's quite true that the Church has not (as far as I know) made formal pronouncements dealing explicitly with spiritual gender. I deduce its existence, partly from my experience as an artist, partly from the distinctions that the Church has firmly maintained about the sexes (such as only ordaining men, a tradition which makes no sense at all if the only thing under consideration is sex organs), and partly from my reading "Theology of the Body," which puts the Catholic theology of the soul, I feel, into a more properly embodied and Semitic context. That being said, my own evaluation could easily be wrong in some or many respects, and even if it isn't, it's extremely incomplete.Gabriel Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607504369762849930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-57965941599316347732014-06-04T10:49:19.209-07:002014-06-04T10:49:19.209-07:00I love you for writing this.
MarmI love you for writing this. <br /><br />MarmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-54354658635968338032014-06-03T06:12:00.494-07:002014-06-03T06:12:00.494-07:00I'm sort of the opposite. I started life with ...I'm sort of the opposite. I started life with a very strong sense, yes emotionally, that any contraceptive sex was at heart nihilistic. Indeed, the thought filled my little adolescent psyche with the dread of meaninglessness. I probably first embraced the Catholic Church for this very reason.<br /><br />Today, I can say, after a whole lot of porn and masturbation and some rare gay stuff with a guy I truly love (a love I am not hesitant to construct according to the cultural scripts of romance, as contingent as they may be)...my dread is quite completely numbed, and has come to be replaced by very tender feelings regarding the role of sex as expression-of-intimacy (like "grooming" behavior among animals bonding?) within a committed relationship at least (random fornication still seems drug-like and bleak to me because of how fleeting the illusion of connection is...)<br /><br />Yet I know that, deep down, these feelings all betray themselves. Because the reason THOSE particular actions are "intimate" in the first place, the reason sex involves those parts and those pleasures and that neural circuitry...is because they are related to having a child with someone. That's the only reason touching genitals is what sex is as opposed to, say, sticking a finger in their ear or nose. That's obvious enough. But what does it mean then when that very "organizing principle" that explains the great significance attached to the whole thing...is simultaneously excluded?<br /><br />I don't FEEL it as existential dread anymore either exactly because the emotional reality doesn't care and our secular culture is all about "experience" and relationships based on subjective chemistry.<br /><br />But deep down somewhere I still know that if I'm getting the joy (or thrill) of sharing THAT level of "intimacy" with someone, but then withholding the element which is actually what established the boundaries of intimacy in the first place...well it's like having pious feelings at a simulation of the Mass. Psychologically all the symbols (or, at least, enough) are still there to set up the dynamics of sacred and profane, the tensions needed for religious experience...but if the actual "core" that those boundaries were made for is not there, then we're just tricking our brain into having the experience through experiencing its accidents without the essence.<br /><br />I suppose what the Church needs to explore, however, is what value even accidents may have. Because I've been very prayerful at Anglican Masses; they were a farce re: transubstantiation, but does that mean they were spiritually valueless and entirely just aestheticism? Especially if as a Catholic I wasn't fooling myself and knew the limits and the difference?<br /><br />Is the Church able to recognize a similar "relative" value in loving sex acts even if ultimately still pointing out how they are morally problematic inasmuch as they pull the rug out from under their own internal anthropo-logic?Greg Mintznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-77727841431206977752014-06-03T00:07:12.690-07:002014-06-03T00:07:12.690-07:00souls have genders?souls have genders?Ramukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008585783665485195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-7196268794758946412014-06-02T17:55:18.313-07:002014-06-02T17:55:18.313-07:00Very interesting perspective, you write well as al...Very interesting perspective, you write well as always. I dunno Gabriel, I can't speak for the spiritual realm but my relationship with my partner seems pretty much identical to hetero relationships. With the exception that our house is impeccably decorated it's difficult to think of any way in the physical world that our relation is different. It seems like straight relationship advice is interchangeable with gay relationship advice except for specifics in the bedroom, obviously. I also am not sure about the idea of gendered souls. Plato was a big fan, but I can't think of a specific teaching from the Church about that. Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08371071455575271992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5766538007498037282.post-75479107761502100672014-06-02T15:39:51.474-07:002014-06-02T15:39:51.474-07:00Gabriel, thank you for this profound article. Gabriel, thank you for this profound article. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com